Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 17, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Changed the functionality of Leadership to: “You gain 2 Energy for each ally affected by one of your shouts or chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).”

Read: +4energy from GFTE if you have a minipet. BUG FIX?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20111117

Kunder · Nov 17, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Well, the minipet is technically your ally. Whats to be fixed?

If anything I would say that this is a desired feature since Anet clearly agrees that paragons suck horribly in small groups. Best change would be to simply give double bonus for shouts that affect the paragon itself, but w/e. Its a neat feature as is

HigherMinion · Nov 17, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

They still suck horribly; energy or none. They simply have no good skills to abuse... The only ones I can think of is barbed+maiming and that's it. What else are they good for?

Suggestions for a 4v4 arena Paragon bar?

Xenomortis · Nov 18, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

This has almost no effect on PvE; you were almost always limited by the energy gain cap, not the energy gained per ally. This is almost certainly an attempt to make paragons more flexible out of pure 8v8 in PvP.

wilebill · Nov 18, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Guess it is good, but it causes me no excitement, just a fresh wave of ennui.

Rise of Cpu · Nov 18, 2011, 02:45 AM // 02:45

i have a paragon - its a good feature - but its not my main - i don't really care too much about it, just use my paragon for show lol

DiogoSilva · Nov 18, 2011, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Gonna copy my post from another thread here:

Just went through 25 wins on RA playing a paragon. ^^ Was with a really good team, though. I took the Enraged Spear build from rangers, switched Barb Spear with "Go For the Eyes!", and was spamming 7 energy gain very often. Didn't need expertise at all for energy management. The new flux kept beast mastery at 14.

But then again, I always thought paragons had great energy management with leadership - when it fully worked. Still, that's the only "viable" build I can think of for RA paragons from this update at the moment.

EDIT: That's because it's a build that both keeps me attacking (to activate adrenaline shouts) and abuses (non-paragon) skills thanks to the help of energy management.

Showtime · Nov 18, 2011, 04:35 AM // 04:35

I haven't played my para in a long time. Does this give some possibilities for high cost supports skills? Is it time to test out the radiant runes and high energy staff or even spear and offhand?

DiogoSilva · Nov 18, 2011, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Here's another build I've been running on RA:

14 Leadership with +3 Rune and Head, for 7 energy gain per shout/ chant.
High tactics + tactics shield. Everything else on Spear Mastery.

-"Burning Refrain" plus (and because) "They're on fire" is now manageable (only costs 3), and because you'll have less health than your opponent.
-Slayer's Spear because you can pay for its cost now, and you'll have less health than your opponent.
-Burning Spear for synergy, plus Barbed Spear.
-"Watch Yourselves" for free 7 energy management and constant party protection.
- Soldier's Fury for IAS and more adrenaline (and thus more energy).

Focus on the damage dealers, like elementalists or the melee characters. Your party will have constantly 1/3 damage reduction from them PLUS +18-21 ARMOR.

Things to note:
-Because your attack skills deal mostly armor-ignoring damage, you can grind heavy armorers while still keep their damage reduced.
-You'll still have enough damage to help out killing anyone else.
-Your low health will be compensated by your protective skills.
-You can attach Burning Refrain to more players whenever you have free time and resources to do so, but the build doesn't needs it to be effective.

Lanier · Nov 18, 2011, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Showtime

I haven't played my para in a long time. Does this give some possibilities for high cost supports skills? Is it time to test out the radiant runes and high energy staff or even spear and offhand?

There aren't really any good high cost support skills. Energy was never the paragon's biggest problem - their awful skill set was. I guess there's TNTF, but that was easily useable before this update, even in 4 man areas like old ascalon. As for PvP, well I can't think of any skills above 10 energy that are worth using.

Bobby Sox · Nov 18, 2011, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Well, back in 2007 I suggested this or a slight variation on it, doubling the amount of energy gained in 4-man areas and was shot down:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/l...tml?t=10232399

Anyways, outside of the 4-man areas, a few skills that this helps slightly are the single target shouts, such as "Find Their Weakness!", as well as the several shouts like "Never Surrender!", which don't always affect the entire party. It also allows for a little more splitting on a GvG team with a Paragon without worrying as much about compromising the Paragon's energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Energy was never the paragon's biggest problem - their awful skill set was. I guess there's TNTF, but that was easily useable before this update, even in 4 man areas like old ascalon.

While I agree with you that the Paragon's skillset is it's main hindrance and that Paragons were still very much usable in 4-man zones, I'd equate it with any other profession only getting half benefit from their primary attribute in such areas. A Mesmer who casts more slowly in 4-man areas or a Necromancer who gains half as much from soul reaping due to party size limits would still be usable, for instance, but it would be an annoyance, nonetheless.

Take heart, though! Robert Gee has stated on the official wiki:

Quote:

This change was something we've been thinking about for a while to help out Paragons in 4 man areas and 4 man PvP. It's not the big Paragon update we've been talking about, rather it's just something simple we felt could help that wouldn't cause any collateral damage. It just made more sense to release once it was ready than to hold onto it.

KotCR · Nov 18, 2011, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Nice change. Its simple but will really help Paragons maintain there use of their favourite builds in 4-man areas. Previously you'd have to sometimes sacrifice an extra skill slot (and therefore some utility you actually wanted) for an extra adrenaline shout/chant or glowing signet. This will no longed be neccessary...and as mentioned already, on the PvP side of things will make Paragons more viable for splits, RA and CA, as they do have a handful of skills which are still effective even with only 4 allies.

With the current flux it may be a perfect time to roll a Searing Flames + "They're on Fire" Paragon for a semi-useful and fun build in RA now. Wasn't really practical before with the gimped leadership, but now the energy costs of such a build won't be as big a deal.

Skyy High · Nov 18, 2011, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Simple, and it helps paras not feel gimped in 4 man areas. I like it.

As for the people saying that paras are terrible regardless of energy in RA: heck no. Leadership was always their problem; they do fine ranged damage (and can stack quite a few conditions) as they are.

Bobby Sox · Nov 18, 2011, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

As for the people saying that paras are terrible regardless of energy in RA: heck no. Leadership was always their problem; they do fine ranged damage (and can stack quite a few conditions) as they are.

I believe what most mean when they say that is that Paragons are terrible at support in such areas, which is supposed to be a big part of their role. I don't want my Paragon to be just a ranged Warrior. However, most of the shouts, chants, etc. are designed around supporting a whole party and thus they miss out on a lot of their support potential when the party limit is decreased. While the extra energy from Leadership will help Paragons in RA, etc., the skills other than condition/damage spear attacks still suffer.

street peddler · Nov 18, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

this change is like a band-aid. solves one problem, but paragons are just fundamentally broken. their main tools (shouts, chants, echoes) need to be completely re-imagined. every class has useless skills, but 75% of the paras skillset is worthless because its either lackluster (the entire Motivation attribute) or outdone by another class (why use Its just a flesh wound when Restore Condition does the same thing except better, why use Defensive Anthem when its inferior to Aegis (in PvE) and its NON-ELITE, why use Anthem of Guidance when Ghostly Weapon is not as random and not an elite(and GW isnt even widely used)).

HigherMinion · Nov 18, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

this change is like a band-aid. solves one problem, but paragons are just fundamentally broken. their main tools (shouts, chants, echoes) need to be completely re-imagined. every class has useless skills, but 75% of the paras skillset is worthless because its either lackluster (the entire Motivation attribute) or outdone by another class (why use Its just a flesh wound when Restore Condition does the same thing except better, why use Defensive Anthem when its inferior to Aegis (in PvE) and its NON-ELITE, why use Anthem of Guidance when Ghostly Weapon is not as random and not an elite(and GW isnt even widely used)).

Ijafw is a shout. 0s cast. Uninterruptible.
Defensive Anthem cannot be stripped.

Just saying. There were some considerations to game balance such as these. Whether the same care and consideration went into buffing dervish, mesmer and warrior hammer skills, etc. of recent times, I doubt it very much.

Kunder · Nov 19, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

The problem is that everything unique that a paragon does is almost entirely uncounterable short of running away and hoping the enemy team has to split up at some point. This has always been the problem from the start. Anet never really thought things through when they originally created the expansion professions, but it shows far more with the paragon than the others. As soon as paragon shouts become worthwhile alternatives to essential party functions they become uncounterable alternatives to essential party functions, which is imbalanced.

We saw the same problems with Assassins (shadowstepping), and Ritualists (Spirits). Both were horrible mechanics until Anet got their shit together and nerfed them (Dervs suffered the opposite problem originally, having no worthwhile mechanic and being nothing but warriors who were worse at warrioring). Fortunately the other professions had other attributes that proved semi-worthwhile, Paragons have none. Without usage of party wide shouts Paragons bring absolutely nothing to the table that isn't being done better already by the ranger.

HigherMinion · Nov 19, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The problem is that everything unique that a paragon does is almost entirely uncounterable short of running away and hoping the enemy team has to split up at some point. This has always been the problem from the start. Anet never really thought things through when they originally created the expansion professions, but it shows far more with the paragon than the others. As soon as paragon shouts become worthwhile alternatives to essential party functions they become uncounterable alternatives to essential party functions, which is imbalanced.

We saw the same problems with Assassins (shadowstepping), and Ritualists (Spirits). Both were horrible mechanics until Anet got their shit together and nerfed them (Dervs suffered the opposite problem originally, having no worthwhile mechanic and being nothing but warriors who were worse at warrioring). Fortunately the other professions had other attributes that proved semi-worthwhile, Paragons have none. Without usage of party wide shouts Paragons bring absolutely nothing to the table that isn't being done better already by the ranger.

What you're suggesting is "buff paragons and they're instantly OP and need nerfing" and "paragons are outclassed"

So... Delete the profession? Replace with commando, pls.

Kunder · Nov 19, 2011, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

What you're suggesting is "buff paragons and they're instantly OP and need nerfing" and "paragons are outclassed"

So... Delete the profession? Replace with commando, pls.

Sadly, thats the TL;DR version of it all. Un-counterable mechanics have always been bad for the game. Party-wide buffs likewise. Mix the two together and you have a recipe for disaster. Paragon skills and/or base game mechanics need serious changes before Paragons can exist in a worthwhile state.

Just thinking of a few things that could/need to be done:

* Completely scrap the mechanic of echoes. Shouts that get more powerful the more shouts you use will absolutely never work. These were really the capstone in the mountain of horrible ideas that is the paragon.

* Only 1 paragon party-wide shout can be active at any time (i.e. same mechanic as weapon spells). Obviously for the purpose of preventing mass shout stacking. This would let Anet go back and power up shouts to reasonable levels. Single target shouts should remain completely spammable, even though mostly uncounterable they can be balanced and require some skill to use.

* Perhaps give more powerful shouts an enforced downtime between reapplication so 100% chaining can't work. Some kind of "shout exhaustion" mechanic.

* Shouts reworked in such a way that they can be stronger the less allies are nearby. Otherwise Paragons will forever be doomed as an un-splittable class, which is always a great way to make a class irrelevant. One could perhaps tie this into the previously mentioned shout exhaustion mechanic.

LifeInfusion · Nov 19, 2011, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

* Only 1 paragon party-wide shout can be active at any time (i.e. same mechanic as weapon spells). Obviously for the purpose of preventing mass shout stacking. This would let Anet go back and power up shouts to reasonable levels. Single target shouts should remain completely spammable, even though mostly uncounterable they can be balanced and require some skill to use.

"Stand Your Ground!"/"Fall Back!"/"Incoming!"/"Never Surrender!"/"Never Give Up!"/"Can't Touch This!"
"GFTE!"

That wouldn't work because they aren't the problem, the echoes/finales/chants were. If you're on Fall Back! you aren't stationary, so you don't get the SYG bonus. We saw this with Invoke spike E/Ps that only used SYG+FB.